“Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are. Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.” (Romans 8:18-21)
1640, Rembrandt, satan showing Jesus the kingdoms of the world
The mystery of God’s existence is not so clear to some people. The reality of evil in this world, with sickness and suffering—makes it difficult for some to imagine a God of love. What these persons don’t understand is that this present world of suffering and death is not the earth that God created. God made the earth and man perfect. Man would never die, there would never be any evil, sickness, or suffering. It was not the will of God that these things would ever be on the earth.
God told Adam that he could eat from any tree that was in the garden, except one, the tree that would bring evil into the world. Paul wrote in the Book of Romans that when Adam sinned, by eating the fruit God told him not to eat, it was Adam who brought death to mankind.
Romans 5:12: “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”
Critics assert that God is culpable for sin, evil, suffering, and death because He knew it would happen. The idea is that God is all-powerful and all-knowing, therefore He is responsible for creating people whom He knew would sin.
This is a critical argument that is without merit. There is no court of law in the human world where creating children who later commit evil, would make the parents culpable. Only if the parents participate in the evil that their children commit, would the law see them as guilty of participating in the crime.
This is simply one more argument made by atheists and critics in an effort to malign and impugn the Holiness of God. Only in the mind of a person who has an agenda to bring disdain upon the God of the Bible and the people who love Him, would this kind of accusation be made. Most reasonable persons understand that we humans are responsible for our own evil actions.
God gave the earth to us and commanded us to love and take care of each other. The reason that earth is filled with evil and suffering, is because we humans bring it to the world. If everyone on earth loved God and obeyed His commands to love each other and do no harm, there would be no evil or suffering on earth resulting from human actions.
Death is another matter. As we read in Romans 5:12, it was sin that changed our physical bodies and caused them to begin the dying process. Only if Adam did not sin would he live forever. This would have been passed down to us and no one would die on the earth. Physical death is a direct result of sin coming into the world by Adam’s disobedience to God’s law—with each of us also disobeying the law of God and committing sin.
The world that we see today which is filled with violence, evil, suffering, and death, is the result of people rejecting God and living their lives according to what they think is right.
The Choice Is Ours
Beginning in the Old Testament we see that God has given us a choice between evil and good. Adam had this choice, and he chose evil. Later in the Book of Deuteronomy the Lord spoke through Moses and told us once again that we each have a choice:
Deuteronomy 11:26-28: “Look, today I am giving you the choice between a blessing and a curse! You will be blessed if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today. But you will be cursed if you reject the commands of the LORD your God and turn away from him and worship gods you have not known before.”
The broken and evil world that we see every day, is tremendous evidence that our choices have caused this planet to suffer—not God.
Some critics state that because God had the power to prevent evil, and He allows evil to exist—evil is His fault. Is God responsible for our suffering since He knew it would happen?
If you have children and they grow up to make bad choices and ruin their lives, is this your fault or theirs? God created the earth for us and gave it to us to use, enjoy, and manage. He expects us to live lives that are moral and right, and to take care of other people. It is not God’s fault, or His responsibility that we have brutalized each other to the point where the whole planet is filled with evil and violence. It’s our fault that human life is so difficult and filled with so much pain and suffering.
With these things being understood, we should also remember that God has done something about the evil, suffering, and death that we humans experience on Earth. Not long after Adam sinned and brought death to all humans, In chapter 3 of Genesis, God promised the world that a Savior would come who would redeem the world back to the perfection that God had planned for us.
The entire purpose of Jesus coming to earth was to “save that which was lost…”
Luke 19:10: Jesus said: “For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
Every person who has been born on the earth since Adam can have a second chance at eternal life. Adam’s sin which brought death, is not permanent. We can reverse death and our present condemnation for sin, by trusting in Jesus who left heaven and came to earth to die for all sins for all time. Anyone who is sorry for their sins can come to Jesus and ask Him to save them, and He will. Our debt for sin was fully paid by Jesus on the cross.
Everyone can be saved, but not everyone wants Jesus to save them. God does not force His love upon us; He does not force us to obey His law; He does not force us to accept Jesus’ death for our sins and to receive eternal life. God has left this choice to us.
If we exercise our choice to turn from our sins and fully trust in Jesus for our salvation—continuing for all of our lives—God will save us. Jesus’ death for all sins will be applied to our record and God will wipe away all of our sins. We will exist as perfect beings forever.
You and I live during the time after Jesus has paid our debt for sin. God has given the world a time of Grace in which “whosoever will,” may come and find forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus. God has appointed a time when this grace will come to an end, and then, Jesus will return to earth in judgment.
The Apostle John recorded the second reason that Jesus came to earth, “to destroy the works of the devil.”
1 John 3:8: “The Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.”
Between Jesus’ first arrival on earth for salvation, and His return to earth for judgment, satan still has the opportunity to steal, kill, and destroy:
John 10:10: “The thief (satan) does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come (Jesus says) that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.”
Much of the evil that we see on earth; the murders, rapes, molestations, and cruelty, is orchestrated by satan and his demons. The unsaved are open prey for the devil to take captive and force them to do his will.
2 Timothy 2:26: (Describing the unsaved and the role of the believer to help people know Jesus) “…and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.”
God has promised special protection for everyone who knows Jesus as their Savior. There is no enemy that can touch the believer, no demon who can torment or afflict the believer. We see an example of this truth in the life of Job.
Only when God gave permission to satan could he touch Job. Even with this permission, it was limited and controlled by God. Job was not suffering because he had done wrong; He suffered because he had done everything right. The accusation of satan before God was that Job only served God for what He could get from Him. God allowed Job to be tormented and afflicted to prove his good character, and that people serve God, just because they love Him.
To the unsaved, the Bible is clear that satan makes the unsaved his captives (2 Timothy 2:26). He can torment, afflict, and even destroy these persons.
This becomes a consistent reality in the world where we see so much evil and destruction perpetrated upon so many across the earth. This is another important reason that we should not blame God for what satan and the demons do in the lives of people.
God has done something about satan and the demons; He has chosen a time when these plagues upon human beings and the earth will end. He has determined a day when there will never again be evil, sickness, suffering, or death. It all ends the day Jesus returns with His church and establishes His righteous kingdom on earth.
The problem of evil and suffering is no problem for the people who know and love God. We understand that God uses all things together for good, for those who love God and are called, according to His purpose. The present condition of the world is the result of people doing exactly what God said not to do—with a warning that if they did do what He said not to do—the world we see now would result.
The Principle of Rulership
When Adam was created by God, he was given the earth. The dominion and rule over this planet belonged to Adam and his descendants as long as they continued to obey God.
When satan deceived Eve and Eve convinced Adam to eat from the fruit, Adam lost dominion of the Earth to satan. Since that time the whole Earth remained under the dominion of satan, whom Paul called, “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:4).
When satan came to Jesus in the New Testament and offered Him rulership over the whole earth, satan said it was his to give to whoever he chose. Jesus does not disagree with this claim by satan, only that we should worship and serve only God.
Luke 4:5-8: “Then the devil took Jesus up and revealed to him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. “I will give you the glory of these kingdoms and authority over them,” the devil said, “because they are mine to give to anyone I please. I will give it all to you if you will worship me.” Jesus replied, “The Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.’”
This is why Jesus described satan as, “the ruler of this present world,” four times in the New Testament. 1
John 12:31: “The time for judging this world has come, when Satan, the ruler of this present world, will be cast out.”
The Earth is filled with evil violence, hatred, rape, murder, theft, cruelty, selfishness, and many other plagues—because sin was introduced into the world by Adam’s rebellion against God, and because satan is the ruler of this present world. In realizing the truth of these two realities we can see why blaming God for the condition of this evil world, is futile.
The idea that God is guilty because He gave us choice and knew we would choose evil, is also a ruse. We are responsible for our own choices and what results. Only in this present day where Woke idealism has spread into the consciousness of some people, has there been a simultaneous claim that God is responsible for the evil that is present in the world.
The word, “Woke,” originated from a new term created by African American Vernacular. At the end of 2009, some people began to infer that certain social inequalities and white racism, along with prejudice against LGBTQ people, were rampant in the United States.
Many of these new ideas were initiated by atheists who also asserted that Christianity and the Bible are the real culprits of racism and prejudice. Others who study social changes in society state that in this current generation of young persons, an entitlement attitude has emerged. In the generation I grew up in, a person earned honor and respect by living a righteous life.
When my two sons were growing up in the 90’s they received a trophy or ribbon while participating in events because they worked hard and sacrificed to earn these honors. In the generation that followed, the thought that everyone deserved a trophy or ribbon as recognition that they had participated would make them feel included and valued. Instead, this philosophy has created a generation of people who think they are entitled to the same recognition that people who worked hard received, even though they didn’t put in the time and effort.
This has resulted in a world where pressure is placed upon us to accept and accommodate people, regardless of their behavior or lifestyle. This philosophy has made our world perilous with angry, vindictive, lawless individuals, who do not respect the rights of others. This generation believes that they can do what is right in their own eyes, instead of what God who created us, determined is right and wrong.
The Bible predicted that in the last days, these social difficulties would emerge and be the final downfall of human society—leading to the return of Jesus.
2 Timothy 3:1-4: “You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God.”
While these social issues increased in the minds of some people, the Christian church adopted an inclusive attitude, sanctioning same-sex pastors, leaders, and church members—acceptable to God and the Christian Church. This social inclusiveness gave birth to the Progressive Christian Movement and a departure from the principles taught in the Bible.
In Progressive Christianity, few pastors teach verse by verse through the entire Bible. Instead, the Progressive church accentuates social issues that make people feel safe, but do not lead to salvation. Instead of teaching repentance and a new life, people are left in their sins to live as they please, being deprived of the eternal life God promised.
There is no place in the Bible where God accommodates people in their sins and chosen lifestyles. God is never focused on making us comfortable in our life—He calls everyone to repentance from sin, and to live a new life of holiness and righteousness.
Combining all of these radical changes in the past 50 years, we now see a substantial erosion of biblical marriage between one man and one woman for life, and the family as it has been historically defined for millennia. Immorality, fornication, adultery, and same-sex relationships have become normalized. Many Christian churches refuse to teach the historical biblical principles that God established for human relationships.
Today America is quickly becoming a post-Christian society, predominantly secular and without God. Many states which were conservative since the founding of America, have become liberal, and secular, and seek to remove God and the Bible from every part of human life.
God created the universe, created the earth, and made it ready for us to inhabit. He gave us His law so that we could all lead righteous lives of peace and love. Instead, we have chosen to reject God and His laws, and in place, we have inserted secular relativism and societal demands.
It is not possible to blame evil and suffering on God. This world is the product of our choices, as God gave the earth to us, and told us how to live—but we have refused to live as He commanded, and instead, choose to do what is right in our own eyes. This was the condition of the world just before the Great Flood, and it is the condition of the world today as we are at the precipice of Jesus’ return.
Genesis 6:5: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Matthew 24:37-39, Jesus said: “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.”
The Consequences of Bad Choices
God created the earth and gave it to us. He commanded us to live righteous lives and to love and take care of each other. We have not done this, and the planet we now have is filled with evil and suffering as the result of our choices to not do what God said we should do.
When Jesus returns to earth, it will be after a period of time when God has allowed each of us to choose our destiny. There can be no choice to love and obey God unless we have the same choice He gave Adam.
We can flee to Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins, and receive eternal life. We can reject Jesus’ offer to take away our sins and give us eternal life. The choice is ours, only we can decide our destiny.
When the time that God has allocated for the people of earth to make a choice, expires, Jesus will come again and judge the world. He will remove all those who refuse to live their lives as God requires and establish a righteous kingdom where there will be no more evil, sickness, suffering, or death. We have the chance today to decide how we will live. If we choose poorly, we will suffer the consequences of our choice. If we live as God has commanded, we will experience the most beautiful and spectacular life imaginable.
The reality that God knew people would choose sin and evil has become a mountain that cannot be climbed, for a great number of atheists. Since God knew that the creation of man would result in the present evil we see on earth, in the mind of the skeptic, this makes God the source of all evil, suffering, and death.
The problem for those who hold this narrow view of God is that they cannot see the bigger picture that God sees—living outside time and knowing all things. To achieve a family of people who want to live with God, in the manner that He has determined—requires a long human process. God must create us with the right to choose our destiny and allow us to make the right or wrong choices during our lives.
The Lord gave us all that we need to know about how to live our lives, in the Bible. As we study the scriptures we learn what God requires, who He is, and how we can become more like Jesus.
The Lord gave us His moral law and how we can enter into a relationship with Him by trusting what He said. It is we who must seek to know God, learn what He requires, find Him through the words He has preserved for us in His written word, and exercise our choice to believe.
Acts 17:24-31: “He is the God who made the world and everything in it…From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries. “His purpose was for the nations to seek after God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him—though he is not far from any one of us. 28 For in him we live and move and exist…“God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him. For he has set a day for judging the world with justice by the man he has appointed, and he proved to everyone who this is by raising him from the dead.”
There is no other way that God could obtain a family of people who love Him and obey His laws for life, other than through our choice and time. We are saved by grace through faith in what Jesus has done for us, but we learn to live righteous lives by doing what God said and refusing to be conformed by this world.
Romans 12:1-2: “And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.”
If God forced us to love Him and do what He requires, we would be mere robots who lack sincere love and genuine desire for a relationship. Just as we cannot force a person to love us and want to be with us for all of our lives, God could not create people who would genuinely love Him—apart from their full consent.
The reality of our creation, and God giving us the right to choose, should dispel any doubts about the love of God, even though our choice also permitted evil and suffering to co-exist.
The highest form of love is to allow a person to choose whether or not they will love us and want to be with us. The highest honor we could give to God is to live as He commanded—knowing that when we do—we will be the beneficiaries of a wonderful and peaceful life on earth.
The preceding is from Rob’s book: “New Testament Apologetics.”
Available In Kindle eBook, Paperback, and Hardback Editions
NOTES:
1. John 12:31, 14:30, and 16:11.
Categories: Atheists, Atheists uneducated observations, Covid-19, Culture of Death, Demonic Possession, Evidence: The Problem of Evil and Suffering, Gay Marriage and Same-Sex, Las Vegas Massacre, Must Be Born Again, Natural disasters, Natural disasters and God, Natural Disasters and God, New Testament Apologetics, Omnipotence Paradox, Parkland Florida Shooting, Religion vs. Relationship, Repentance Necessary, Robert Clifton Robinson, Ruler of the Universe, Salvation is a free gift, Salvation through Jesus, School Shooting, Sexual Immorality, Sin and death, The fall of Lucifer, The heart of the law: Mercy, The Las Vegas Massacre, Transgender Hatred, Understanding Suffering, Wall of Separation, What is required for Heaven?, Why God Allows Evil
Robert Clifton Robinson 
Hey Bob, I thought I would take a stab at your comment to Pastor Rob. You said : Impeach? You mean you’ve never seen compelling arguments against these claims? This isn’t my job. Here’s how it works: if you make an outlandish claim, I’m obliged to reject it until I get compelling evidence that it’s true. The burden of proof is yours, and you haven’t met it.
So answer me this with this one thing about our creator. When you look out your window at the trees and you see the leaves bud out or fall to the earth, who do you think orchestrate this continued process ? The leaves and plant life give you enough oxygen to breath to be able to try to make your argument here about God’s creation and existence. They fall to the ground to rot and make the dirt you walk on. That dirt blows around the globe to provide nutrients for the food you eat to sit here and make your case about God’s existence. To my knowledge man nor anything else has ever been able to replicate the leaf and the process it goes thru everyday. Now if God can do that then I would say we need to listen to what he says and teaches you in your heart and thru his word. You may choose to say I did not make the case and have outlandish claims. Your correct you can discount it by saying all the stuff you say above, but there is one thing you cannot argue with. One day your heart is not going to make that beat to keep you alive. That beat is controlled by the one that makes that leaf go thru its cycle of life. If you are smarter that that cycle of life of that leaf or you can control when your heart will beat next, then I guess their is nothing else to say because in your mind you are right and God who does all of this for you is wrong. You don’t want to depend on him, your choice. You don’t want to believe he exists, your choice. But I can tell you this, it is also God’s choice on your next heart beat and the next leaf you might see fall to the ground or bud’s on a tree. If you don’t agree with me it now becomes your job to prove me wrong about what the leaf does or how your heart beats every moment. It really is that simple. I will pray for you, Bob.
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I find it interesting that man’s choice to believe or not to believe can be as simply as a choice.
So let’s boil it down.
Choice 1: There is a God and you don’t believe. Your choice. Bible says will be judged before the White Throne of God where you will gnash your teeth and cry because now you know there is nothing you can do to save yourself; because, you now realize how wrong your disbelief was, and, then you are unceremoniously thrown into the lake of fire.
Choice 2: There is no God and you don’t believe. You still die … what then … and be ready to absolutely prove that what then. What is good for the goose here is going to be good for gander.
But the choice God gave Adam … He has given to us all. Choose life or choose death.
This is what I believe. Jesus is my Lord and Savior and because of that there is a third option – there is a God and You believe. External Perfect Life. I know … its hard for some to believe and that is Ok by me … because it is very easy for me to believe. I guess God has not hardened my heart or maybe He just always knew that I would.
You the non-believer … decide for yourselves. Just as it doesn’t bother God which way go … it surely does not bother me.
Peace and God’s blessings be with all.
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“What we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.”
Thought experiment: let’s say that you and I are having a theological discussion, and it’s getting heated. Louder and louder it gets until I get so frustrated I punch you in the face.
Immediately, I realize I’ve crossed the line. I give you an honest and heartfelt apology, and I offer you a million dollars as compensation if we can erase the slate. You agree. End of story.
Here’s the question: did I do something wrong? Did I make a moral error? Of course I did—I punched you. True, I gave you a million dollars, which almost anyone would agree is more than generous compensation, but I still made a moral error.
This is the point overlooked when Christians say things like what you said: “What we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.” Yes, eternity in heaven is a bigger good than a painful life on earth is a bad, but God is still morally wrong when he imposes agony on billions.
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Romans 8:18-21 is written to believers, not the world in general. It reminds us that although we are still here on earth suffering, our sins have all been taken away and heaven is our home.
God did not condemn the world to endless suffering for eternity, He provided a way for everyone to receive heaven. He did this through Jesus’ death and resurrection.
Once again, it’s our choice…
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You’ve ignored my point. I’m saying that God makes a moral error.
“Once again, it’s our choice…”
Our choice? What’s the choice if Jesus has already taken care of our sins? If we had a debt and that debt has been paid, then there are no more steps. “It is finished,” after all.
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We have had this argument many times, Bob. You assert that God was immoral by not giving us the knowledge (you say) we require to not sin. I told you that when God created Adam He told him that if he chose a knowledge of evil over good, he would begin the process of death.
Romans 5:12 states that it was by Adam’s decision, sin came into the world, and with it, suffering and death.
God gave the world His Word in the Bible, for how we should live, if we choose, we could have lived this way. The reason the world is suffering and filled with evil, is due to the bad choices of people, not God.
Despite God giving us the “wisdom” you demand, all of us have chose to ignore what God said, and live according the what we think is right.
It is our personal choices that have ruined our lives; it is the choices of people all over the world, today, that continue to ruin the world.
Case in point: if everyone in the world suddenly decided they would live their lives the way that God has said we should, in His Word from the beginning, evil and suffering would immediately diminish.
Although Jesus has already died for all sins and fully paid for them, we must exercise our choice and ask Him to forgive us, and take away our sins. God does not force us to accept His offer of salvation. He did the work; He sent Jesus to die for us and pay the penalty for our sins. Now He has left us with our CHOICE to believe and be saved, or refuse to believe and be lost.
If we are lost we have no one to blame but ourselves. God has done everything that was necessary to save us, now we must each choose.
I was an atheist 49 years ago. I chose to believe and be saved. I don’t think you are any different from me, Bob, all you must do is choose to believe and Jesus’ death for your sins will be immediately applied to your account and you will have eternal life.
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“all you must do is choose to believe”
Can I choose to believe in leprechauns?
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Leprechauns, no; Jesus, Yes.
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In my mind, you can’t choose to believe in anything. Once I come across enough data and arguments to make a compelling case, how can I do anything but believe? Conversely, why would I believe something for which I don’t have that compelling case?
You seem to want to make a special case for beliefs that please you. That’s dishonest.
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Your argument is that you have never believed in anything?
When you go to sleep at night do you believe that your heart will continue to beat?
If not, how would you ever go to sleep?
Have you ever been completely loved by anyone? Did you arrive at this by belief that this person genuinely loved you?
If you will not accept the evidence that God has chosen to give us that He exists, and He sent His Son to redeem us, what else can God, or anyone else do?
1. God has proven His existence by the universe.
2. God has proven His existence by The Bible, His Word,
3. God has proven His existence by His Son, who came to earth
I have never met anyone, or read anything that can impeach these three.
I was the first one in my life who tried to impeach these three. In the process of attempting this feat, I became a believer because all three cannot be impeached, they do prove the existence of God.
In your case you seem to have become so resistant to anything that does prove God, you cannot be convinced.
I make no “special case” for God, I simply follow the evidence to where it leads. The three evidences that God provided for us to know He exists, (above), does prove He exists.
Care to impeach these 3?
Good Luck! I have published thousands of Essays proving these three are valid proof for the evidence of God.
But, if a person, any person, has already made up their mind, as I have seen in you for over 15 years, they will likely not believe anything that does prove God.
Hebrews records the fact of some persons who refuse to believe what God has left us for proof of His existence, and by a continual refusal, they have so hardened their heart that it can never be receptive. I would hate to believe that your heart has reached such a place. You have become beloved to me, Bob, after so many years.
In my 49 years from atheist to believer I have met a handful of people like you who in their final year, all turned to Jesus and were saved. I Hold out Hope For You!
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“Your argument is that you have never believed in anything?”
No, I have never believed something by choosing to do so. What sense would that make? I’d know that I didn’t have a sufficient argument but I “choose” to believe anyway? Not honest.
“When you go to sleep at night do you believe that your heart will continue to beat?”
Yes. I have much evidence in favor of this.
“If you will not accept the evidence that God has chosen to give us that He exists, and He sent His Son to redeem us, what else can God, or anyone else do?”
This is a story. No, I don’t believe it.
What about the Mormon story? Do you believe it? I don’t. Can you *choose* to believe it? I can’t.
“1. God has proven His existence by the universe.
2. God has proven His existence by The Bible, His Word,
3. God has proven His existence by His Son, who came to earth
I have never met anyone, or read anything that can impeach these three.”
Impeach? You mean you’ve never seen compelling arguments against these claims? This isn’t my job. Here’s how it works: if you make an outlandish claim, I’m obliged to reject it until I get compelling evidence that it’s true. The burden of proof is yours, and you haven’t met it.
“In your case you seem to have become so resistant to anything that does prove God, you cannot be convinced.”
Oh, so it’s *my* fault. I’m the bad guy here?
I’ve immersed myself in the best apologetic arguments I could find for many years. No, I’m not the one who’s approaching this conversation with a closed mind.
“Hebrews records the fact of some persons who refuse to believe what God has left us for proof of His existence, and by a continual refusal, they have so hardened their heart that it can never be receptive.”
If I remember correctly, the hardening of hearts was done by God, not by the individual (Ex. 9:13–16, John 12:37–40, Romans 9:18, Joshua 11:20).
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This comment makes no sense, Bob. You “never believed in something by choosing to do so…”
You do it everyday.
We have to make decisions predicated upon the data that comes to us, and decide whether or not it is valid, truthful, or worth our time.
You rest easy without worrying if your heart will really beat a million times today, because you have the data that suggests that it will continue to beat all night. You chose to believe based on what you know about human physiology.
Humans make decisions based upon data constantly.
You graduated from MIT. You are a computer programmer, correct?
You learned code and its reliability providing that the code is correct, and have confidence that it will accomplish what it is written to do, because you decided to believe this.
All event of history that are seen by eyewitnesses and recorded in the record are stories. We believe them or don’t believe them based upon our confidence in the sources that wrote what happened.
In the case of the New Testament Narratives, this is the largest historical, eyewitness testimony about one person, in all of antiquity.
The 39 books that came before the 27 New Testament texts, record, from 1450 BC, until 400 years before Jesus arrived, over 400 specific and precise prophecies that detail what the Messiah will be like, what He will say and do, and the manner in which He will die for the sins of the world.
We know that all of these prophecies were written before Jesus arrived, because they are all in the Septuagint version of the Bible that was written about 250 years before Jesus was born and began fulfilling all of these prophecies.
So we have not only the words of the men who saw and heard Jesus, but also their honest statements that they didn’t know that Jesus was the Messiah, or that He had been fulfilling all of these Messianic Prophecies, until after He was crucified and rose from the dead.
There are 203 eyewitness statements in the 260 chapters of the New Testament.
There are 396 citations in the NT that record the death and resurrection of Jesus.
These texts have been carefully examined using the most modern literary forensic methods ever used, and found to be void of any evidence of fraud or deceit.
These are eyewitness statements, not “alleged eyewitnesses statements.” The men write in their own words that they saw Jesus and heard Him. These are not alleged testimonies, again, they come from the eyewitnesses who saw Jesus “with their own eyes.”
There has never been the kind of historical eyewitness testimony for one person, written at any time, like what we have for Jesus.
You can say you don’t believe it, but you cannot credibly say the evidence is not credible.
You assert that the Mormon bible is equal to the Hebrew and Christian Bible. You say this because you have not studied both of these texts as I have, for nearly 49 years. The Mormon bible is known fabrication by a man who claimed that an angel gave him golden plates that enabled him to understand an archaic form of Egyptian.
In a court of law, it was proven that Joseph Smith did not understand one word of these texts, and it was impossible that he used these plates to write the Mormon bible. It was proven that Joseph Smith used the Hebrew Texts of the Bible to copy the Mormon bible, and fabricate a story with people and places, that have never existed.
The Mormon Jesus is a created being who was just a man, he was a sinner who needed salvation and was made God by his obedience to Mormon doctrine.
The Jesus of the Bible is the Eternal God, Yahweh, from the Old Testament, who was without sin, and has existed forever.
I have read hundreds of arguments, none of them compelling or provable by evidence.
I have studied the original manuscript evidence for the NT.
I have studied Cosmology and the science of the universe.
I have proven in my 37 books and 3,400 Essays that the Universe could not have been produced by a natural or evolutionary process.
I have proven by literary and forensic evidence that the NT is completely accurate, reliable, and is a genuine narrative of true events, seen by the men who wrote these texts.
I have heard and debated all of the primary atheist arguments that seek to impeach a universe created by God, and the NT and perfect in its integrity and content. I detailed these 21 primary arguments made by atheists in “New Testament Apologetics.”
Not once has anyone proven the universe was created by a natural process, or that any part of the NT is not true and reliable.
On one hand you blame God for evil and suffering because He created us
On the other hand you are not to blame for your own choice to reject God and the evidence He provided.
Yet, you cannot prove the NT writers did not tell the truth, or that everything they wrote about Jesus is not true.
You cannot prove by scientific evidence that the universe we live in is the product of natural or accidental events.
I would say that you area of expertise is quite limited.
God knows all of us, perfectly. He knows when we are honest and he knows when we are deceptive. He knows when a person has a hard heart, because they don’t want to believe. In these persons, such as with Pharoah and others, He completes the hardness a person has chosen, by making it permanent.
I hope this has not happened to you, but each time you write to me, I see evidence it has happened.
God is no fool, If we harden our hearts towards Him and the evidence He provided for us, He will make our decision permanent. He wants us to be honest. He wants us to open our heart and seek Him. He wants us to be saved, but He will not endure our obstinance permanently.
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“This comment makes no sense, Bob. You “never believed in something by choosing to do so…” You do it everyday.”
I am frequently compelled to believe in something, but I don’t believe by choosing to do so. What am I missing here?
I am compelled that you exist, for example. It’s possible that you don’t (you’re a bot/AI, you’re a fake presence invented by the CIA, etc.) but these are very unlikely. “Robert Clifton Robinson is a real person who runs a blog” is far and away the leading candidate to explain the data.
“You rest easy without worrying if your heart will really beat a million times today, because you have the data that suggests that it will continue to beat all night. You chose to believe based on what you know about human physiology.”
I choose to believe? So I could choose to not believe?
The options aren’t choose to believe vs. choose to not believe. They’re compelled to believe vs. compelled to not believe. I am compelled to believe you exist. I may or may not like that fact, but I’m stuck with it.
“In the case of the New Testament Narratives, this is the largest historical, eyewitness testimony about one person, in all of antiquity.”
Some religion has to have the largest. That alone amounts to little.
“The 39 books that came before the 27 New Testament texts, record, from 1450 BC, until 400 years before Jesus arrived, over 400 specific and precise prophecies that detail what the Messiah will be like, what He will say and do, and the manner in which He will die for the sins of the world.”
Not even the most impressive one or two are convincing prophecies, let alone those at the bottom of the list.
“So we have not only the words of the men who saw and heard Jesus, but also their honest statements that they didn’t know that Jesus was the Messiah, or that He had been fulfilling all of these Messianic Prophecies, until after He was crucified and rose from the dead.”
When Matt. refers back to Is. 7:14, that’s not a fulfilled prophecy. If you have the ancient book in front of you and you write in your new work, “Yup, that totally happened to Jesus, so that’s a fulfilled prophecy,” that’s not a prophecy. The fulfillment must be written in ignorance of the supposed prophecy.
“There are 203 eyewitness statements in the 260 chapters of the New Testament.”
How many are in the Book of Mormon? You’re setting the bar very low to collect Bible statements, but in so doing, you collect them from other religions, too.
“The Mormon bible is known fabrication by a man who claimed that an angel gave him golden plates that enabled him to understand an archaic form of Egyptian.”
Spoken like an atheist. You’re as insistent on quality evidence as I am, when it’s some other guy’s religion.
“I have heard and debated all of the primary atheist arguments that seek to impeach a universe created by God, and the NT and perfect in its integrity and content.”
Don’t put the cart before the horse. Step 1 is for you to make your claims and back them up. It isn’t my obligation to argue for atheism.
“Not once has anyone proven the universe was created by a natural process”
And yet the people with the PhDs say otherwise. I think I’ll follow what they say since they have all the evidence.
“On one hand you blame God for evil and suffering because He created us
On the other hand you are not to blame for your own choice to reject God and the evidence He provided.”
Did God create me? Then he created me with an honest skepticism for poor arguments. Blame my Creator.
“Yet, you cannot prove the NT writers did not tell the truth, or that everything they wrote about Jesus is not true.”
Not my obligation. You make the claim; you provide the compelling argument.
“I would say that you area of expertise is quite limited.”
True, but I have a secret weapon: the consensus view of many disciplines that, together, amount to Science. No longer does God make the lightning; we have Science to explain it, with evidence.
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I realize you are trying to answer every point I made, but there is nothing of substance here in your comments. I will move on to the point of our original post.
There is substantial evidence that the Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament are valid and considered accurate. This evidence can be categorized into several key areas: textual consistency, historical verification, Jewish interpretation, and fulfillment in the New Testament. Here is a detailed overview:
1. Textual Consistency
The Messianic prophecies are found throughout the Old Testament, written by multiple authors over centuries, yet they demonstrate remarkable consistency in their portrayal of the coming Messiah. Examples include:
• Isaiah 53: Describes a suffering servant who would die for the sins of others.
• Micah 5:2: Prophesies the Messiah’s birth in Bethlehem.
• Zechariah 9:9: Predicts the Messiah entering Jerusalem on a donkey.
Despite being written centuries apart, these texts align in their portrayal of the Messiah’s character, mission, and circumstances.
2. Historical Verification
The Dead Sea Scrolls (discovered in the mid-20th century) provide significant evidence for the accuracy and early dating of these prophecies. Key manuscripts like the Great Isaiah Scroll (dated to around 150–100 BCE) confirm that these prophecies existed long before the birth of Jesus.
3. Jewish Interpretations
Early Jewish sources, such as the Targums, Talmud, and works of Jewish scholars like Rashi, acknowledge Messianic interpretations of many Old Testament passages. For example:
• Genesis 3:15 (the Protoevangelium): Recognized in early Jewish writings as a prophecy of the coming redeemer who would defeat evil.
• Psalm 22: Many early rabbis understood this as referring to the Messiah’s suffering.
• Isaiah 53: Historically interpreted by Jewish commentators as Messianic before being reinterpreted in the Middle Ages to refer to Israel collectively.
These interpretations highlight that Messianic expectations predated the New Testament.
4. Fulfillment in the New Testament
The New Testament presents Jesus as the fulfillment of over 300 Messianic prophecies, including:
• Birthplace: Micah 5:2 → Matthew 2:1.
• Virgin Birth: Isaiah 7:14 → Matthew 1:23.
• Suffering and Death: Isaiah 53 → John 19:34–37.
• Resurrection: Psalm 16:10 → Acts 2:31.
The fulfillment of these prophecies is documented not only by the Gospels but also corroborated by early non-Christian historians like Tacitus and Josephus, who verify key aspects of Jesus’ life and death.
5. Statistical Probability
The fulfillment of so many prophecies in one person is statistically improbable without divine orchestration. Mathematician Peter Stoner calculated that the odds of even 8 prophecies being fulfilled by one person is 1 in 10^{17}. When expanded to over 300 prophecies, the likelihood becomes astronomical.
6. Eyewitness Testimony
The New Testament was written by individuals who claimed to be eyewitnesses or to have interviewed eyewitnesses (e.g., Luke 1:1–4). Their testimony regarding Jesus’ life aligns with the Old Testament prophecies, demonstrating a direct connection between the prophetic predictions and their fulfillment.
The validity and accuracy of the Messianic prophecies are supported by textual evidence, historical documentation, Jewish interpretations, and fulfillment as recorded in the New Testament. Together, these elements create a compelling case that the Messianic prophecies were divinely inspired and fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth.
I have published three extensive treatises that document the 400 Messianic Prophecies as valid, accurate, fulfilled.
1. The Prophecies of the Messiah
2. The Messianic Prophecy Bible
3. These Things Were Written
These three volumes contain over 12,000 pages of documentation that confirms the Prophecies of the Messiah are valid.
Your idea that these prophecies have no validity is your opinion, but it has no substantive evidentiary support.
According to Matthew, who saw and heard these events, he said that when the angel spoke these word, the angel said that Jesus was born of a virgin, a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14
Old Testament Prediction:
Isaiah 7:14a Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin (Almah) shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
New Testament Fulfillment:
Matthew 1:18-23 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.” So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Matthew makes a direct citation from Isaiah 7:14
Although, as an atheist, you can make the assertion that Matthew was not speaking of Isaiah 7:14, the actual extant manuscript evidence, impeaches your assertion. Matthew said that the angel who made the announcement, cited Isaiah 7:14, confirming that Jesus is the object of Isaiah, and that Jesus was, in fact, born of a virgin.
Understanding, from the legal and historical record, that the Book of Mormon has been proven to be a fabrication that came from the Old Testament texts of the Bible, nothing in the Mormon Bible is by eyewitness testimony.
I am just citing the facts of the historical record regarding Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Abraham and the Egyptian Papyri
Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham from a collection of Egyptian papyri that he acquired in 1835. He described the papyri as containing writings by Abraham himself, written in Egyptian. The papyri became the basis for one of the LDS Church’s canonical texts, the Pearl of Great Price.
Scholarly Analysis:
• After the rediscovery of the surviving fragments of the papyri in the 1960s, Egyptologists examined them and concluded that they were standard funerary texts, specifically portions of the Book of Breathings and Book of the Dead, dating to around the first century BCE. These are common funerary documents and have no connection to Abraham.
• There is no evidence in the papyri or translations to support Joseph Smith’s claim that they contained writings by Abraham or that they were in any way unique.
Translation Issues:
• Joseph Smith provided an “Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar,” claiming to describe the meanings of Egyptian hieroglyphs. However, Egyptologists have confirmed that the interpretations in this document bear no resemblance to actual Egyptian grammar or language.
Understanding of Egyptian Language
Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs were undeciphered during Joseph Smith’s lifetime (1795–1844). The Rosetta Stone, discovered in 1799, had only recently provided the key to deciphering hieroglyphs. By the 1820s and 1830s, scholars like Jean-François Champollion were still developing their understanding of the language. Joseph Smith had no formal training in Egyptian or access to credible translations.
Scholarly Consensus:
• Professional Egyptologists agree that Joseph Smith’s interpretations of the papyri and his Egyptian Grammar are entirely incorrect.
• Modern translations of the papyri confirm that Joseph Smith’s descriptions and content from the Book of Abraham do not match the original texts.
Defenders’ Arguments
Some LDS apologists argue that Joseph Smith’s “translation” was not a literal linguistic translation but an inspired revelation. They suggest that the papyri served as a catalyst for receiving divine insight into the story of Abraham.
Challenges to This View:
• Joseph Smith explicitly described the Book of Abraham as a direct translation of the papyri.
• If it was a revelation, it raises questions about why he claimed linguistic accuracy or attempted to construct an “Egyptian Grammar.”
The Kinderhook Plates Incident
Joseph Smith’s encounter with the Kinderhook Plates provides additional evidence about his claims of linguistic knowledge. In 1843, Smith examined six brass plates that were allegedly discovered in Illinois and claimed to translate them, suggesting they contained a record of an ancient civilization. It was later revealed that the Kinderhook Plates were a hoax created to test Smith’s credibility. His failure to recognize the fraud further undermines his claims of linguistic ability.
The historical and literary evidence proves that Joseph Smith did not understand ancient Egyptian as he claimed. His interpretations of the Egyptian papyri used for the Book of Abraham have been conclusively disproven by modern Egyptology, and incidents like the Kinderhook Plates demonstrate his inability to discern authentic ancient texts from forgeries. While some LDS defenders frame the Book of Abraham as a divinely inspired text, the historical and linguistic evidence indicates that Joseph Smith’s claims of translating ancient Egyptian are untenable.
In every written debate I have experienced with you, Bob, over a decade, I have always supported my statements with evidence.
You can see and example of the depth of evidence I provide, in this answer to you.
There is no scientific evidence the universe was created by a natural or evolutionary process. I have published a few books that document these facts: “A Universe That Proves God.” and others.
The primary impossibility for a naturally produced universe is the fine-tuned constants that exist to make the universe a reality.
The question of how fine-tuned physical constants in the universe arose is central to discussions in cosmology, physics, and philosophy. If the universe was created through a purely natural or evolutionary process, the challenge of explaining the observed fine-tuning of these constants—so precise that even small changes would make the universe unsuitable for life—raises profound questions.
The improbability of Fine-Tuning by Natural Processes
The physical constants (e.g., gravitational constant, strength of the electromagnetic force, cosmological constant) appear “fine-tuned” for life because even tiny deviations would result in a universe incapable of forming stars, atoms, or complex molecules. A natural or random process achieving such precision by chance alone is extraordinarily improbable. Without a mechanism to “select” or “adjust” these constants, the odds of getting a life-permitting universe are impossible apart from a directed, controlled process only possible by a thinking being.
If our universe were created by a natural or evolutionary process, achieving the observed fine-tuning of physical constants seems highly improbable without some overarching mechanism (e.g., multiverse, cosmic evolution). Without such explanations, the extreme precision of these constants remains a challenge for purely naturalistic models, leading many to consider alternative explanations, including design. Fine-tuning continues to be one of the strongest arguments prompting deeper inquiry into the origins and nature of the universe.
List any PhD who has provided evidence that the fine-tuned constants were produced by a natural process. I don’t know any…
Correct. I was once the same. It was coming face to face with the historical, literary, forensic, and Cosmological evidence that changed everything. These prove that God exists, that Jesus is the God who created all that exists, that He came to earth as a man, and He died and rose from the dead to redeem all those who will believe,
You have demanded evidence, the NT presents this evidence that states Jesus is God, and He performed thousands of miracles only possible by God.
This is the evidence presented, you as the adversary must prove that these me lied, fabricated their stories, and none of what they wrote is true.
I tried to do this four decades ago. It cannot be impeached, because its all true.
Since when does “consensus” constitute truth? This is particularly true when all of your colleagues are also atheists of progressives, who don’t believe the Bible is true.
There are many atheists today who cite a consensus of scholars as their validation for a particular view of the New Testament. In other words, if several academic scholars believe that Jesus didn’t say eighty-five percent of the things recorded in the Synoptic Gospels, is this sufficient proof that this view is true?
Here’s the problem: the scholars who are cited in this consensus, are atheists who don’t believe that God exists. How exactly can an atheist be an expert on God and the validity of the Bible? Should we rely on someone who doesn’t believe God exists, for accurate information about God? 1. According to atheist scholars, during the “Jesus Seminar,” Eighty-five percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him.
The problem in believing this consensus is that the direct, historical, eyewitness testimony that in in the extant manuscripts of the NT, contradicts these modern experts.
Could it be that they have an agenda?
My agenda is to tell the truth as the facts of history forensics, and science present them to me.
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We’re making no progress.
Thanks for the chat. Merry Christmas.
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Thanks, Bob, you are one of a kind…
Merry Christmas to you also!
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