In examination of the 400 Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament, we learn stunning and insightful truths about the nature and character of God
“The Great Day of His Wrath”, 1851–1853, John Martin
The 127th Messianic Prophecy describes the suffering of the Messiah as: “abandoned by God, friends who abandon Him, and born to die, with the wrath of God poured out upon Him.
Old Testament Prediction:
Psalms 88:14-18 “LORD, why do You cast off my soul? Why do You hide Your face from me? I have been afflicted and ready to die from my youth; I suffer Your terrors; I am distraught. Your fierce wrath has gone over me; Your terrors have cut me off. They came around me all day long like water; They engulfed me altogether. Loved one and friend You have put far from me, And my acquaintances into darkness.”
New Testament Fulfillments:
Abandoned by God:
Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
Born to Die:
Luke 2:7 “And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths (burial cloths).”
Hebrews 10:5, 10 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me… By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
The wrath of God poured out upon Him:
Romans 5:9 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.”
Friends will abandon Him:
Luke 23:49 “But all His acquaintances, and the women who followed Him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.”
Matthew 26:58 “But Peter followed Him at a distance to the high priest’s courtyard.”
Luke 22:54 “Having arrested Him, they led Him and brought Him into the high priest’s house. But Peter followed at a distance…”
Application:
Psalms 88:14-18 speaks of the Messiah being ready to die from my youth. It was the purpose of Jesus’ birth that He should die for the sins of the world. He suffered the terrors of God’s fierce wrath for all of us, as He took upon Himself the punishment and death that we deserved.
A difficult principle for the world to understand is the wrath of God. How can a God of love be reconciled with a God of wrath? The two seem to be incompatible. What we learn from the Bible is that God’s love is closely connected to His Righteousness. Because God is always good, He can do nothing else but what is right and just.
We should understand that our Great God of Love is also a Great God of Justice.
The Lord could not possibly be Righteous if He did not punish sin. It is morally wrong to allow the guilty to go unpunished. At the Cross, the Lord showed to us the ultimate example of Love and Justice together at the same time: We were guilty; God judged our sin by punishing His own Son. In doing this, He maintained His righteousness by carrying out a just punishment for our sins while at the same time, showing us His Great Love.
In God allowing Jesus to suffer for the sins of all men, He was able to establish a righteous basis to forgive our sins. The law of God stated: “the soul who sins shall die.”
Ezekiel 18:4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.”
In order for God to be seen as Just, He must do what He has said and punish sin with the death of the guilty. God did not overlook man’s sin; He punished it just as He promised. This was accomplished by a provision in the law of God that allowed an innocent mediator to stand in the place of the guilty and take the punishment demanded by the law. We see this established in the Lamb that was offered at Passover and the animals that were brought to the priests in the Old Testament sacrifices. These were shadows of what was to come when God would send His Son to die as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
The law of God allowed for a substitutionary death by someone whose life was perfect and had sufficient value to offer it in place of the guilty. Only the perfect, eternal, and Holy life of Jesus was adequate to pay for the sins of the entire world.
In order for Jesus to be qualified as an offering for our sins, first He had to become one of us. Living on the earth as a man, He could not fail in even the smallest point or He would be disqualified as the Savior of the world.
Hebrews 2:14-15: “Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.”
Jesus met all of the requirements set forth by the Old Testament laws of sacrifice.[1] He was the firstborn, a male, without sin, offered during the Feast of Passover, dying during the twilight of the afternoon, and His blood was the covering for all our sins. In this regard, Jesus was fully qualified to be the one sacrifice which would take away all the sins of the world.
The Feast of Trumpets and the Rapture
By successfully completing the plan of salvation for all people, Jesus fully vindicated God and showed all creation that God is Loving, Merciful, and Just.
Those who criticize the wrath of God that is poured out on those who continue in their sin, do not understand the dual realities of Love and Justice. God could not possibly be loving if He did not punish evil. Sin is a moral defect that is present in all people. It is, however, not natural. We were not created by God as sinners; we became this way because of Adam’s disobedience which he passed down to us and caused our tendency towards wrong moral actions. The Bible calls this moral defect: “sin.”
It was because all human beings have broken the law of God and remained guilty and without excuse that God sent His Son into the word to die for us. In Jesus death for our sins, we see that God has been just in punishing our sins, while at the same time—very loving in allowing us to remain free of all future judgement.
For this reason, Prophecy 127 speaks of the suffering that the Messiah would experience when He took the punishment that we deserved for our sins. Jesus was:
- Abandoned by God: Mark 15:34.
- Born to Die: Luke 2:7, Hebrews 10:5,10.
- The wrath of God poured out upon Him: Romans 5:9.
- Friends abandoned Him: Luke 23:49, Matthew 26:58, Luke 22:54.
Who God is and what He does is a mystery to those who do not know Him. It is not possible to know God apart from the revelation of Himself that He has made through the pages of the Bible. This compilation of 66 books, written by 40 authors over a period of more than 1,500 years, is intended as a user’s manual for God. Those who believe that God can be know by their wisdom are mistaken. It was by the foolishness of the cross that God would confound the wise and destroy the wisdom of men. Isaiah wrote: “who has believed our report?” That God would die for sinful men, impossible. That One man could remove the sins of all other men, incomprehensible. That a man could obtain eternal life by doing nothing more that turning from his old sins and receiving Jesus as his Savior—Incredible, but true.
How could a transient being, understand a transcendent being? Can a mere man, whose life is but a vapor, comprehend the Creator who is eternal? Paul wrote in the book of Hebrews that God has is the past, spoken to the world—through the prophets, but in these last days, He is speaking to us one final time—through His Son.[2]
We are from earth; He is from heaven. We began our existence when He created us; He has no beginning and is eternal.
The mistake that many people make in seeking to explain who God is, or to deny that He exists, is that He has made certain that no one could know Him or how He operates the universe by their intellect. To proclaim that God does not exist is utter foolishness. The fact that the universe exists, and you and I are walking around on a tiny planet in a remote area of the universe, is conclusive proof that God exists. No one has ever been able to prove categorically that the universe came into existence on its own.
The latest theory that is being put forth by theoretical physicists is that the universe began on its own from nothing. The fact is that nothing that we have observed so far in the universe—has come into existence without a cause. Whatever we can perceive or discover, has a beginning. Nothing exists without an intelligent being causing that particular thing to come into existence. Do you believe that your car just suddenly appeared out of nothing, or do you understand that a being with intelligence made the components of your car and then assembled them so that they became a useful machine? The Universe is infinitely more complex than you car; it does not exist apart from design, engineering, and precision.
The fact that we see a mechanism of immense complexity, called the universe, demands that some intelligence assembled the components and formulated laws which order the universe.
Sir Isaac Newton’s work on the physics of time and space are considered the foundation for all scientific knowledge today. On July 5, 1687, Newton published three books that have been referred to as the “Principia,” a Latin term that describes his “Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy.”[3]
Newton wrote in his Principia, that the order and design which we observe in time and space are inseparable from the existence of God. In Newton’s view of the evidence presented by the universe through science, mathematics, and astronomy, this “most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.”[4]
“The true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful being. His duration reaches from eternity to eternity; His presence from infinity to infinity.…He governs all things and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity and infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures forever, and is everywhere present; and, by existing always and everywhere, he constitutes duration and space. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.…He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved.”[5]
Isaac Newton viewed the evidence for God’s existence as self-evident by the presence of the universe itself. In his observance of all the scientific and mathematical absolutes of the Cosmos, “the Creator cannot be denied in the presence of such a magnificent creation.” Newton found it preposterous that any intelligent person could imagine the universe came into being, without an unlimited intelligence as its first cause. Newton came to these conclusions based on the evidence of science, mathematics, and astronomy.[6]
Isaac Newton observed comets and planets moving in concentric orbits from many different positions, and concluded that this would be impossible apart from the design and engineering of an intelligence. A transcendent being of immense power created gravity to act on these planets and cause them to follow the same centerpoint, ordered by the laws of physics.[7]
Albert Einstein demonstrated that gravity occurs as a result of space-time bending, which in the final conclusion of his theories, confirms Newton’s judgment that orbits follow geodesic trajectories. In other words, both of these great men of science concluded that the universe has a design and a purpose.
Newton determined that without intervention from the Creator of the universe, the stars would collide with each other on a more frequent basis. By apparent design, God has limited the amount of motion that occurs in the universe from decay due to viscosity and friction.[8] In many of Newton’s writings, he implies that the force of Gravity was influenced by something immaterial—an intelligence.
“It is inconceivable that inanimate brute matter should, without the mediation of something else which is not material, operate upon and effect matter without mutual contact.”[9]
It was the conclusions of Sir Isaac Newton, that God was the force that kept the planets in orbit—as they could not sustain such motion by themselves.
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. …This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called ‘Lord God’ παντοκρατωρ [pantokratōr], or ‘Universal Ruler.’ … The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect.”[10]
When we examine the writing of Isaac Newton, we find that he also believed in a supernatural design which is observable in the area of Biblical Prophecy. He believed that it is impossible that more than 300 prophecies which describe one person, who is described as the Messiah, could ever be fulfilled by any one person.
“Newton understood the words of God in prophecy as a reflection of the design in God’s creation.”[11]
In order for God to exist, He would have to be before and above all other things; otherwise, He would just be “a god” in a long series of Gods. This is concept of God that is presented to us in the Bible. The God of the Bible is unique and singular.
- He is eternal, with no beginning and no end.
- He knows all things.
- All things were made by Him.
- All things belong to Him.
- All beings are subject to Him.
- All true laws originate from Him.
- All Judgement belongs to Him.
The universe, the earth, and all human beings are evidence for God. The fact that these three exist in such an advanced form and are so beautifully and elegantly designed, proves that there is a Master Designer as their source.
This 127th prophecy speaks of God as determining a plan for His Son; to be rejected, despised, hated, and ignored. Although He would come to the earth to die for every person, the world would hate Him and put Him to death. I have never understood this plan, but how grateful I am that it is true. For if the Father had not given us His Son, we would have no hope of eternal life.
Because He is the only God and all judgement belongs to Him—the fact that He is perfect; demands that all His judgements are also perfect. Therefore, when the Bible speaks of the wrath of God, even His wrath is perfect.
As human beings, we think of wrath as wrong. A person who is full of wrath is most often viewed as incorrect in his behavior. We have developed the idea that anger is always wrong. In reality, anger or wrath are emotions that God is endowed with, and He has given this emotion to us as a part of our nature, for a good purpose. Anger is not sinful or wrong; it is manifested for a righteous purpose. If we become angry because an injustice has occurred, this is righteous anger. If we observe a person being abused or deprived of their liberty—we must act to stop these injustices.
Unfortunately, on many occasions, our anger is caused by our own selfish demands or expectations—this is unrighteous anger. When people do not get what they want or expect, they become angry and sometimes commit acts of violence or death. When people hurt us, take advantage of us, take something from us that we value, or cause us pain or discomfort, we often become angry and take action that is sinful.
An example of righteous anger is the depiction of Jesus in the temple, driving out the money changers. These men had set up tables in the area of the temple that was reserved for Gentiles worshippers to come into the Temple at Jerusalem and worship God (see Prophecy 116). When Jesus came to the Temple He found that the court of the Gentiles had been filled with tables that were used to exchange foreign currency into Jewish currency. Jesus’ anger was correct and justified in removing these men who were preventing others from being able to worship the true and living God, and making the house of the Lord a place of merchandising.
If you should see a person being hurt or taken advantage of and you have found yourself becoming angry, this would be the correct usage of anger. If you should then overreact and kill this person who was committing the abuse, you would likely be guilty of wrongful action. It takes a great deal of wisdom and restraint when it comes to understanding correctly how to make use of our anger in an appropriate way.
These things being said, whenever God is said to be angry or filled with wrath, He is always justified in His actions because He can never do anything that is wrong. Because He is God and because He is always good, it is impossible for Him to do anything evil. Consider this: If God were not perfect in every way, He would not be God. Imperfection, even in anger or judgement, would mean that He still needs to learn something. There is nothing that God needs to learn because He knows all things, and He always does those things that are perfect.
When God pours out His wrath on His Son for the sins of the world, or on those who reject His offer of salvation, He is justified in doing so. We might question why, or feel that perhaps He has overreacted, we would be wrong in our assumption. God is perfect; we are flawed. All of His judgements are always right. Our understanding of His ways, His character, and nature are extremely limited. In order to correctly understand God, we must first understand that He can do no wrong and that everything He does is always good. If we do not believe this, then our view of God’s actions and behavior will be incorrect.
If God exists in the universe, then He must be singular; and He must be perfect
If a perfect, all powerful, all wise being created the universe, then His creation would have to be flawless. It is not possible that such a Being could create anything that was less than perfect. If an imperfection should occur in creation, it would have to come from one of the beings which God created with the ability to make choices that are morally right or wrong.
Imperfection became possible at the moment the Lord decided to give man the right to chose. No one knows exactly why Adam determined, of his own free will, to disobey God. The Lord knew ahead of time what the consequences of granting Adam this power would be. Adam had the ability to name all of the animals that existed on the earth at the time God created them, so he was certainly very intelligent. Perhaps, Adam did not really understand the reality of death because he had never seen anything die. Whatever temptation that Adam felt, the desire to heed this temptation was stronger than his desire to obey the Lord.
Adam’s choice
What we discover that is most amazing about Adam’s sin is that God knew it would happen before He created him. The Lord understood that Adam’s disobedience would cause all of his descendants to also become sinners and have no possibility of fellowship with God. The Lord always acts—based on what He knows about the future. Since He knew that Adam would fail, what possible benefit could there be for God to create Adam with the ability to chose, when the terrible results of that choice were known to God beforehand?
In other words: Why would God do something, knowing that it was doomed to fail? This is an interesting riddle that has incredible implications.
The only reason that makes any sense is that God could see what the entire course of all these events would lead to. The Son of God would die for the world. He would be abused, beaten, betrayed, and buried. On the third day, He would rise, never to die again. He would ascend back to heaven, and return to earth in about 2,000 years. First, to take His church back to heaven, then seven years later, return a second time with His church, to rule the earth and the universe for eternity. This must be the result intended by the Lord which caused Him to create man in the first place.
Paul wrote that the reason that Jesus endured the agony and the shame of the cross was for the Glory that was ahead.
Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
God saw far into the distant future of the world, when all evil and rebellion would finally be put down. He saw those who would receive Jesus as redeemed in heaven with Him. He saw satan and all those who worship him, cast into the Lake of Fire—forever. He saw a new heaven, a new earth and a kingdom in which complete righteousness dwells.
It was for this future Glory that Jesus endured the events spoken of by this 127th prophecy from Psalms 88:14-18. It was because the Lord had already seen us perfect, and whole, living forever without the presence of sin and its effects upon human life, that He gave Adam the power of choice. It was for this purpose that Jesus came and died and fulfilled all 400 of the prophecies contained in the book, “The Prophecies of the Messiah.”
1. Exodus 12
2. Hebrews chapter 1
3. Among versions of the Principia online
4. Principia, Book III; cited in; Newton’s Philosophy of Nature: Selections from his writings, p. 42, ed. H.S. Thayer, Hafner Library of Classics, NY, 1953.
5. Flynn, David (2008-09-08). Temple At The Center Of Time: Newton’s Bible Codex Finally Deciphered and the Year 2012 (Kindle Locations 331-336). Defender Publishing LLC. Kindle Edition
6. Webb, R.K. ed. Knud Haakonssen. “The emergence of Rational Dissent.” Enlightenment and Religion: Rational Dissent in eighteenth-century Britain. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge: 1996. p19.
7. Newton, 1706 Opticks (2nd Edition), quoted in H. G. Alexander 1956 (ed): The Leibniz-Clarke correspondence, University of Manchester Press
8. H.W. Alexander 1956, p. xvii
9. Newton to Bentley, 25 Feb 1693
10. Principia, Book III; cited in; Newton’s Philosophy of Nature: Selections from his writings, p. 42, ed. H.S. Thayer, Hafner Library of Classics, NY, 1953.
11. David Flynn, “Temple at the Center of Time”, Location 384, Kindle Version
Categories: Dying for those who reject Him, Empirical Evidence for God, God's Sovereignty, Natural disasters, Robert Clifton Robinson, Sin and death, Sodom and Gomorrah, The Anti-Christ, The Crucifixion of Jesus, The Last Days, The Nature of God, The Rapture of the Church, The Trials of Jesus, The Wrath of God, Why evil exists, Why God Allows Evil, Why Jesus Suffered
Robert Clifton Robinson 
“One of the things I like about you, Bob, is that you are always honest. Thank you!”
While we’re in a complimentary mood, let me thank you for allowing comments at your site. Many or even most Christian apologetics sites refuse to allow them. Perhaps they feel that, if they were to have them, they’d have to police them so that their blog would be a G- or at worst PG-rated. Perhaps. But I think the problem is less laziness (not wanting this chore) and more fear (afraid their ideas aren’t strong enough to defend in public).
But enough speculation. I know I’ve said it before, but bravo for engaging in the challenging discussion.
“Would you please tell me how Bob would have created humans and given them choice, but not allowed them to choose evil.”
Many Christians say that human free will is very important because they want to find some way to get God off the moral hook he’s on. If free will is fundamental, then poor God’s hands are tied, and he must just sit there on his Throne of Justice and watch humans make a hash of his Perfect Plan. This doesn’t work because (1) natural evil like earthquakes and disease are still God’s responsibility, and (2) God is hardly a champion of free will when he just watches a murder or rape victim’s free will being trampled on by the murderer or rapist.
But that’s a long-winded way of saying that I’d start with acknowledging free will in humans both here on earth and in heaven. If Christians are so adamant about free will, then they must grant that humans have it in heaven. “You wouldn’t want humans to just be robots about morality or loving God, right?” must apply in heaven if it’s mandatory in heaven.
The one thing I’d change would be to give humans on earth sufficient wisdom to handle free will. For example, right now, we don’t worry about people taking hammers and smashing themselves in the head. It’s just common sense that that’s stupid. No one is motivated to do that.
But what if you leave something valuable unguarded, and I know I could take it and not be caught. The answer is *not* common sense, because lots of people—whether simply due to a not-uncommon sense of greed or because they’ve got some tough financial problems—would be tempted to take it. Give us moral wisdom (which, BTW, we should already have because of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, but that’s a tangent), and the problem is solved.
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I have had the privilege of many discussions with you. I know that we are not going to agree on most subjects, but I enjoy the exchange. What I cannot tolerate is hostility and disrespect. I haven’t seen these things from you.
so…I can’t imagine why others don’t want to discuss these things with you. It may be that they don’t know how to defend their positions.
If we want people to be free to make their own choices, isn’t this a good thing?
The alternative is narcissism; forcing people to do what we want with no regard for their welfare or desires.
I can’t understand how you think God giving us free will to decide whether we will choose good or evil, lets Him “off the hook.” Unless you simply want to blame God for what we do with our choices.
God’s hands have never been tied, and He doesn’t want to tie ours.
1. He created us perfect, but gave us choice>
2. All of us have used our choice to do evil.
3. The Law of God states that we must be perfect, as He is perfect, because we were created to be perfect like Him.
4. The scriptures describe a time when all of those who admit they have broken the law of God and flee to Jesus for redemption, will be given rulership over the entire universe. This requires people who will rule with righteousness as God does, and not permit evil again.
5. I cannot think of any other way that God could have achieved these things, except by mutual consent.
6. All of the redeemed will be clothed with immense power. With great power comes great responsibility. Imagine giving that kind of power to the Democrats or Republicans. It wouldn’t turn out well.
7. We must be remade into new persons who want righteousness, or it won’t work.
As far as God “watching and doing nothing,” I think you misunderstood what God is trying to accomplish.
He gave us this world to manage as we choose, with Him having oversight to not allow us to destroy ourselves or the planet.
If we don’t stop evil, violence, rapes and murders, it’s our fault. God is allowing us our attempt at using human wisdom and strength to rule the present world. but because of sin, our moral defect, it has been a colossal disaster.
David wrote that in the end God will be proven right. His righteousness and Laws are good if they are followed. The fact that the world is in such a state of evil is testament to the failure of us doing it our way.
We are nearly finished with this time of Grace when the unsaved can flee to Christ for salvation. When this time ends, then final judgment will begin on earth.
God has not forgotten to judge evil, He has been giving people time to change their minds about Him and His rule over their lives, before He holds us accountable for the choices we have made.
We will have free will in heaven. Theoretically, anyone can sin in heaven, if they choose.
After going through a life on earth where sin and evil exist, I don’t believe anyone in heaven who are now perfect beings, will want to ever see sin come into human life again.
You are right, Bob. God has given us sufficient wisdom to handle free will, by giving us His law, His will, as described in the 66 books of the Bible. Anyone who follows the Law of God will have a wonderful life. Even with laws that are no longer applicable to Christians, those under the protection of Jesus death for their sins, can still enjoy the benefits of living a life following the law of God.
In Acts 15, only four laws from the Old Testament were carried over for those who believe and live in Jesus.
1. Don’t eat meat sacrificed to idols (for conscience sake)
2. Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled and the blood not drained. This is due to the dangers of blood borne bacteria and disease.
3. Dont drink blood, for the same reasons as in 2
4. Avoid sexual immorality, because this is a sin against our own body that was created by God for righteousness
Everything else we do or don’t do as the followers of Jesus, is because of our love for Him and our desire to glorify Him by the way we live our lives.
The law that the followers of Jesus live under is the Law of Love. We don’t take what is not ours, because this would not be loving towards the person we took it from, or to God for whom we love and are grateful for His kindness to us.
Jesus summed this all up with just two laws that His followers should obey:
1.Love God
2. Love people
Jesus said the entire law of God is summarized in these two, and no others are really necessary.
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“If we want people to be free to make their own choices, isn’t this a good thing?
Sure. But God wouldn’t be unrealistic about giving them a test they can’t pass. Why bring a soul to life on earth if you know he’s bound for hell? Why give a moral test to Adam and Eve *before* they’ve gotten any knowledge of morality and then condemn the rest of us for their failure?
But what free will do I have when a murderer can trample all over it? Again, I don’t think God looks like a champion of free will when the reality he created doesn’t permit my free will.
“The alternative is narcissism; forcing people to do what we want with no regard for their welfare or desires.”
No, the alternative is for God to give us sufficient wisdom to properly use free will. If I *could* steal you wallet but see that morally that’s not the best option, then I won’t steal. And a society in which everyone has this profound wisdom would be one where any valid reason for stealing (say, you don’t particularly need the $100 in your wallet, but it would feed my child) would have been preempted long ago.
“I can’t understand how you think God giving us free will to decide whether we will choose good or evil, lets Him “off the hook.””
By saying that Rule 1 is “humans must have free will,” society can have murder and rape and God isn’t blamed. God is bound by Rule 1, even though it pains him to see all the violence..
“Unless you simply want to blame God for what we do with our choices.”
When God sends us out into the world with insufficient wisdom, God can hardly complain when we see him in Judgement.
“1. He created us perfect, but gave us choice”
Perfect? Have God give us sufficient wisdom to properly use free will and maybe you’d be correct.
“2. All of us have used our choice to do evil.”
Whose fault is that? We’re built imperfect.
“4. The scriptures describe a time when all of those who admit they have broken the law of God and flee to Jesus for redemption, will be given rulership over the entire universe. This requires people who will rule with righteousness as God does, and not permit evil again.”
I’m waiting for the point in the story when God gives us sufficient wisdom to make perfect moral choices on our own.
Bizarrely, the Eden story says that we’ve already gotten perfect understanding of good and evil. And bizarrely again, it was a *bad* thing in the story for Adam and Eve to gain moral wisdom.
Toss the Bible aside, and it all makes sense—we may not like it, but it’s understandable.
“6. All of the redeemed will be clothed with immense power. With great power comes great responsibility. Imagine giving that kind of power to the Democrats or Republicans.”
Give immense *wisdom* to humanity, and our petty problems would vanish.
“If we don’t stop evil, violence, rapes and murders, it’s our fault.”
*Why* is there violence? Yes, the violence comes from us, but there is no alternative when we don’t have the wisdom to fix things. God created this reality—how it he not to blame? When he pressed Start, he knew it would be a mess.
God may want us to see that we can’t create a perfect society ourselves, but why? Of course we’ll fail if he sends us out into the world with insufficient capability (moral wisdom in this case). A better Plan is for God to give us the wisdom to create a moral world.
“God is allowing us our attempt at using human wisdom and strength to rule the present world. but because of sin, our moral defect, it has been a colossal disaster.”
How is sin not God’s fault? He knew how things would play out and he started human society anyway.
“David wrote that in the end God will be proven right. His righteousness and Laws are good if they are followed.”
Which is irrelevant since we can’t follow rules perfectly.
“We are nearly finished with this time of Grace when the unsaved can flee to Christ for salvation.”
Rom. 5:18-19 says we’re all good. The debt has been paid.
“God has not forgotten to judge evil, He has been giving people time to change their minds about Him and His rule over their lives, before He holds us accountable for the choices we have made.”
“Narrow is the way,” right? God, for some reason, brings most people into the world knowing they’re bound for hell.
“After going through a life on earth where sin and evil exist, I don’t believe anyone in heaven who are now perfect beings, will want to ever see sin come into human life again.”
Right! So whatever moral upgrade humans get in heaven, give it to them now.
“You are right, Bob. God has given us sufficient wisdom to handle free will”
And yet murderers still murder. No, apparently our wisdom is insufficient to handle free will.
“by giving us His law, His will, as described in the 66 books of the Bible.”
This is a moving target. Jesus had to update the laws with his “You have heard it said that X, but I tell you Y” in Matt. 5.
Anyway, slavery being regulated in the Old Testament alone (see Lev. 25:44-46) means the Bible should be discarded as a source of wisdom.
“In Acts 15, only four laws from the Old Testament were carried over for those who believe and live in Jesus.”
And still no prohibition of slavery.
“Jesus summed this all up with just two laws that His followers should obey: 1.Love God 2. Love people”
Jesus said the entire law of God is summarized in these two, and no others are really necessary.
And yet this fiasco that we call human society is still imperfect. The Bible is just words on paper. Even if the Bible had perfect wisdom (it doesn’t), we’re unable to follow it completely.
Society is a mess, but there are positive indications. Every improvement in society has been due to people (vaccines and other medical advances, communication like phones and the internet, travel like planes and shipping, and so on). I see no evidence of God.
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Jesus proved that the “test” can be passed. Although Jesus was the Eternal God who created all that exists, when He came to earth as a man, He was fully human in ever regard. Jesus had the capacity to sin, but He chose not to.
The entirety of the New Testament record describes Jesus as never committing any sin.
Jesus challenged the leaders of Israel to prove that He had ever sinned, they were unable.
Jesus proved to us that sin is a choice that we make, but it is possible for a human being to not sin.
Adam and Eve were created perfect, and they had never sinned. This was the way that God created them, they chose to sin.
You have the choice today to give up on your quest to prove that God doesn’t exist, and admit that you are a sinner like all of us are, and ask Jesus to cleanse your sins and make you perfect again.
People committing their sins against you, has nothing to do with your choices to sin.
Jesus said that when people sin against us; take what belongs to us; reproach us; do all manner of evil against us, that we should not act to take revenge, but commit their sins against us to Him, and He will judge their actions later at the final judgment of all things.
The Bible gives us the Law of God and reveals His will and how to live our lives. This is the “wisdom” that you say that God should have given us.
You have still not told me how God could create us to love Him and live with Him, without giving us the right to say, “no,” I want to live my own way?
Your comments here now; your rejection of God, these are privileges that God gave you, and you have gladly taken advantage of these rights.
You have proposed no alternative to God’s plan for life by telling us Bob’s plan for our life, that is better.
The best that you have done so far is to say that, “God should have given us wisdom to live our lives without sin.”
This is precisely what He has done. He told Adam, don’t sin, Adam did it anyway.
He told all of us, don’t sin, live your lives according to my law, and all of us have refused. God gave us the wisdom you say that we should have from Him, but we have refuse to live by His wisdom.
This is why the world is filled with evil and violence: people refuse to submit to God’s way, and they do what they think is right or wrong.
God gave us wisdom: Don’t sin, follow my plan for life, we refused.
God told us that He requires absolute righteousness to live in His kingdom, we refused.
God said that, “The soul that sins will die.”
We didn’t care, didn’t believe this, and we all die.
We were informed by God in advance, told how to live, informed of the penalty for disobedience.
Our loss and judgement by God is our fault, not His
Yes. When God made Adam He was morally perfect. He would never have died if he had never sinned.
He died because He chose sin.
We die because we do the same.
Jesus’ death for all sins, takes away our record of sin, and makes us perfect again, read to live in heaven.
When my sons were young they blamed each other for the wrong they committed.
The blaming of God for what you do, seems to me, to be a childish excuse.
This horse has already been beaten to death.
You have been given the wisdom of God in His word, the Bible, but you don’t believe it either.
Your problem so far, Bob, is your ignorance of what God has already said, and your unwillingness to learn what He said, then to blame Him for not informing you.
This is the fallacy of atheism.
The simple truth is that even today, if all the world suddenly decided that they would individually live their lives according to what God said in the Bible, the world would immediately become a place of peace, love, and pleasure.
Your entire excuse is predicated upon your assertion that God has not told us how to live. Yet the Bible has existed for 3,450 years, and people in the world don’t study it, or live it.
All of the evil in the world is caused by the actions of people, not God.
These actions are directly in contradiction to what God said not to do.
If God tells us how to live and we refuse, then we are responsible for our actions.
This is precisely what we see throughout the history of man on earth.
You keep repeating the same excuse: God has not given us the wisdom we need to live righteous lives.
Yet if I interviewed you and asked you to tell me what you have learned from study of the Bible, you will tell me the same thing you have said when I ask you why you didn’t read my essay before you made comments.
“I don’t have time t commit to read a 4,200 word essay…”
The problem is not that God has given us the “wisdom” you demand; the problem is that you are unwilling to read what He said, believe it, and do what He said.
Because He didn’t commit the sin, we did.
He gave us wisdom to know that sin will ruin our lives, but we did it anyway.
I think I am catching on now. You think that you can win an argument with God by claiming that your sins are His fault because He made you this way.
I created two sons, and I taught them to not sin.
They grew up and committed sin anyway.
How is that my fault?
1. Simply because we can’t be perfect, does’t mean God’s laws are not perfect.
2. The reason that Jesus came was to take away the sins we commit when we are less than perfect.
3. You have rejected both 1 and 2, so whose fault is that?
Romans 5:18-19 (NKJV) 18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
This text from Romans is exactly what I have been saying.
1. Adam’s sin brought sin to our world.
2. Since all of us come from Adam, we also sin, but we don’t have to
3. Even though we might try to be perfect, we sill still fail occasionally.
4. Jesus came to take away all sins, intentional, and unintentional.
5. Everyone who believes that they can be made perfect by Jesus’ death for our sins, and lives their life for Him, is made perfect by trusting in Him.
6. Jesus’ death makes anyone perfect, if we believe it and live it.
7. This promise is for everyone, even you, Bob.
Jesus is described as, “The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
This means that before Jesus created the universe, or any of us, He knew that we would be lost by our choice to sin.
He volunteered ahead of time, to come to earth and die for us.
He also knew who would believe and continue to believe, and who would never believe.
He chose for salvation, those that He knew before He created anything, would exercise their choice and believe and continue to believe for all their lives.
He also knows who will not believe, even though He came to earth and was seen and recorded by many eyewitnesses, leaving us a record that He died and rose again.
John 12:37 states that “even thought Jesus performed many miracles that prove He is God, most of the people who saw Him, still did not believe.”
This proves that even seeing Jesus will not change a heart and mind that refuses to believe.
This is exactly what God does for those who trust in Jesus now, they become morally perfect before God, fully ready for heaven.
The wisdom God gave us is sufficient; the desires and actions of people is not sufficient, because we choose to ignor God and do what we want.
It wasn’t an update. The Messianic Prophecies of the Old Testament state that when Messiah comes, “He will exalt the law.” in the Hebrew it means that He will clarify the true meaning of the law, and demonstrate it by the way He lives as a human being on earth.
By saying, “you have heard that it was said, but I say to you,” Jesus is saying that He is the Messiah that all the OT prophets wrote about.
Jesus is also saying that the authority He has is greater than all the made up, “traditions of men,” that the scribes and Pharisees had fabricated. The Jesus added over 600 laws that God didn’t intend, to the original 10 that God gave.
There is no law from God establishing slavery.
There are laws from God that regulate the fair treatment of slaves because sinful men will not do what God said and let all me be free.
God destroyed the nation of Egypt and Pharoah because he enslaved the Israelites. God commanded Pharaoh to release them from their slavery, he refused, God destroyed him.
I think that this is God’s definitive statement on slavery: “don’t do it, or I will destroy you!”
Why is human society imperfect?
We choose evil over Good.
Jesus said that the law of God is not that hard.
1. Just love God
2. Just love people
We have said: “No,” will do as I choose.
Therein is the historical problem
God’s law is not hard, but we make it hard, by refusing to do what He said
And yet, even with all of our advancements, we still live in a world of sin, evil, suffering and death, because we choose sin over good.
This will, however, not last much longer.
Jesus will come again someday and judge all the evil that has been done on this earth, and those who have done these things will receive the punishment they deserve.
Those who have fled to Jesus for the salvation He offers, will be spared all judgment, designated as perfect and righteous, and allowed to live in the new and perfect world that He will create.
I hope you will join us, Bob
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(Wow–these replies are getting way too long.)
“Jesus proved that the “test” can be passed.”
By a god, yes.
“Jesus had the capacity to sin, but He chose not to.”
Because he had great wisdom. How about giving that to us so we can pass the test, too?
“Adam and Eve were created perfect, and they had never sinned. This was the way that God created them, they chose to sin.”
They made a moral error before they ate the Fruit which conveyed the ability to avoid moral error. (1) What blame falls on their shoulders, then? (2) If they ate the Fruit and gained moral wisdom, and we are their descendants, why don’t we have perfect moral wisdom?
“People committing their sins against you, has nothing to do with your choices to sin.”
No, it has to do with *their* choices to sin. You’re avoiding the issue. The point is, a world with free will and morally clumsy people means I will get hurt, as will everyone else.
“The Bible gives us the Law of God and reveals His will and how to live our lives. This is the “wisdom” that you say that God should have given us.”
Pretty weak tea. Do you have a hard time imagining infinite wisdom so profound that we’d make infallible moral choices at every decision point? “Read the Bible” is obviously not sufficient.
“You have still not told me how God could create us to love Him and live with Him, without giving us the right to say, “no,” I want to live my own way?”
How are you unable to say No? How does my having infinite moral wisdom mean I become a robot, saying forever, “I … love … God”?
“Your comments here now; your rejection of God, these are privileges that God gave you, and you have gladly taken advantage of these rights.”
And where is my infinite wisdom? Give me infinite wisdom, then present your supposedly compelling God, and let’s see if you case makes me love God.
“You have proposed no alternative to God’s plan for life by telling us Bob’s plan for our life, that is better.”
And how many times must I repeat it? My proposal is that everyone gets infinite moral wisdom, and then we’d be able to perfectly handle free will.
“The best that you have done so far is to say that, “God should have given us wisdom to live our lives without sin.”
This is precisely what He has done. He told Adam, don’t sin, Adam did it anyway.”
He told morally clueless Adam not to sin? Who can then be surprised when Adam failed the test for which he had no ability to pass?
“He told all of us, don’t sin, live your lives according to my law, and all of us have refused.”
Blame our Maker if we’re imperfect.
“God gave us wisdom: Don’t sin, follow my plan for life, we refused.”
And I’m asking for infinite wisdom, wisdom so profound we’d know the morally correct path at every fork in the road.
“God told us that He requires absolute righteousness to live in His kingdom, we refused.”
We need absolute righteousness? Great—then have God give it to us.
“When God made Adam He was morally perfect.”
And yet Adam wasn’t equipped to handle new challenges. Teleport Adam to a big city slum with a wife and child to feed. How would Adam do?
“The blaming of God for what you do, seems to me, to be a childish excuse.”
Why do I do what I do? In large part, because God made me imperfect. You don’t like my imperfections? Blame my Maker.
“This horse has already been beaten to death.”
Tell me about it. You have yet to respond to my (seemingly simple) thought experiment.
“Your problem so far, Bob, is your ignorance of what God has already said, and your unwillingness to learn what He said, then to blame Him for not informing you.”
I’m an imperfect vessel. Who can be surprised that I don’t act with perfect wisdom. I wasn’t given any.
“This is the fallacy of atheism.”
The atheist says, “I don’t have a god belief.” That’s it. I’m given poor reasons to believe in God, so what’s the fallacy?
“The simple truth is that even today, if all the world suddenly decided that they would individually live their lives according to what God said in the Bible, the world would immediately become a place of peace, love, and pleasure.”
“What God said in the Bible”? You mean like how slavery works (Lev. 25:44-46)? Or genocide? Or how women are more or less property?
“Your entire excuse is predicated upon your assertion that God has not told us how to live.”
You are seriously amazed that, given Bronze Age wisdom in the Bible, people don’t universally follow it to the letter? People aren’t built like that.
“All of the evil in the world is caused by the actions of people, not God.”
(1) are disease, tsunamis, and hurricanes caused by people? (2) And we’re still stuck with the unsurprising fact that if God doesn’t give us the ability to wisely use free will, we won’t use it wisely.
“You keep repeating the same excuse: God has not given us the wisdom we need to live righteous lives.”
Correct. I wonder why one explanation isn’t enough.
“Yet if I interviewed you and asked you to tell me what you have learned from study of the Bible, you will tell me the same thing you have said when I ask you why you didn’t read my essay before you made comments.”
From my study of the Bible, I see precisely the wisdom I’d expect from a Bronze Age book. It’s terrible morality from today’s perspective.
“The problem is not that God has given us the “wisdom” you demand; the problem is that you are unwilling to read what He said, believe it, and do what He said.”
Tell me some of the failures that you see when imposing biblical demands on modern society. The first Commandment is a good indication of the problem: thou shalt have no other god before me. I’ll take the First Amendment instead, thanks.
“Because He didn’t commit the sin, we did.”
What alternative might have played out? You think ordinary humans could keep a set of laws perfectly for four score and ten years? You’ve got way more confidence in human ability than I do.
“You think that you can win an argument with God by claiming that your sins are His fault because He made you this way.”
I’m not trying to win an argument. I’m trying to see why my simple answer to your question about how I’d change things could cause so much confusion.
“I created two sons, and I taught them to not sin.
They grew up and committed sin anyway.”
And this amazes you?
“How is that my fault?”
It’s not your fault. You didn’t design them. But God did. They come out of the box flawed and then God is outraged?
“1. Simply because we can’t be perfect, does’t mean God’s laws are not perfect.”
OK, let’s imagine God’s laws are perfect. Imperfect humans can’t follow laws perfectly.
“3. You have rejected both 1 and 2, so whose fault is that?”
The Maker who made me imperfectly. (But I repeat myself.)
“There is no law from God establishing slavery.”
Then you tell me what Lev. 25:44-46 is explaining.
“There are laws from God that regulate the fair treatment of slaves because sinful men will not do what God said and let all me be free.”
Oh, I get it now. God put the rule for chattel slavery in the Bible, but somehow it’s all Man’s fault.
“I think that this is God’s definitive statement on slavery: “don’t do it, or I will destroy you!””
No, God’s position on slavery is: it’s bad if my Israelites are enslaved. If they enslave other groups, well too bad for them.
“Why is human society imperfect?”
For the purposes of this conversation, because God gave us free will without the wisdom to use it properly.
“And yet, even with all of our advancements, we still live in a world of sin, evil, suffering and death, because we choose sin over good.”
Do *you* live a sinless life? I thought no one did.
“This will, however, not last much longer.”
As Christians have predicted every year for the past 2000 years. How long is “much longer”?
“Jesus will come again someday and judge all the evil that has been done on this earth, and those who have done these things will receive the punishment they deserve.”
Will you enjoy heaven knowing that I’m frying forever in hell? That won’t rain on your parade, even a little?
“Those who have fled to Jesus for the salvation He offers, will be spared all judgment, designated as perfect and righteous, and allowed to live in the new and perfect world that He will create.
I hope you will join us, Bob”
No need. Rom. 5:18-19 says we don’t need to do anything to get salvation.
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In reply to Robert Clifton Robinson.
(Wow–these replies are getting way too long.)
Jesus overcame sin as a man, not God.
The text of the Bible says that Jesus overcame sin and never sinned, because of His love for the Father and desire to glorify Him in all things
The Bible says that Adam and Eve were warned by God not to eat. They chose to eat of their own free will. They experienced the consequences of their acts, exactly what God said would happen: death and separation from God.
Adam and Eve already had moral wisdom before they ate, yet they still chose evil over the good that God wanted to give them.
It’s nice that this is your opinion, but the historical facts as recorded by God for us in the Bible, states that because of God’s love, He gave us choice.The world became a wasteland because of the choices people make to sin. This is our fault, not Gods.
I can understand what the Bible says, that He knew ahead of time that Adam would sin, and this is the reason that God determined ahead of time to become one of us, live a sinless life to demonstrate it can be done, and then give His perfect life in payment for the penalty of sin that we owed. Even a child can understand this.
Adam could have said no to sin and yes to trusting God. If He had we would all be living in a perfect world.
Adam did love God, but his love and desire for sin was greater than his desire to continue in love and trust of God. We do the same thing in our lives. I made the choice to love God and live under the shelter of His protection from the future judgement, you have chosen not to.
The Bible is the infinite wisdom that you seek, but you don’t believe it. Believe it, turn from your sins and trust Jesus, and you will receive the benefits of God infinite wisdom, Eternal Life.
Same answer, The Bible is the infinite wisdom from God, but people don’t believe it, or live by what it says.
Ah, the consequences of receiving the gift of free will, but choosing poorly.
Adam also had the choice to obey God and then none of this would have happened.
God didn’t make us imperfect, we became imperfect by our own choice
Why can you not understand that what God says, is infinite wisdom. But you also have the choice to believe what He said and do it, or refuse to believe and do what you want.
We receive absolute righteousness the moment we are sorry for our sins, turn to Jesus for salvation, and receive the forgiveness of our sins. At that moment we become perfectly righteous.
Adam lived in a perfect world where God provided everything he needed. This life would have continued for eternity, if he had not chose evil over good. It’s really as very simply concept to grasp.
We do what we do because this is what sinners do. It is our nature to sin, but we also have the choice today to turn from our sins and be set free from the power they have over us, the moment we decide to trust in Jesus and live for Him. Jesus called this event, being “born again by the Spirit of God.”
What thought experiment? Your assertion is that sin is God’s fault, but it is we who have the choice to sin, and we who are responsible to choose not to sin. I do it everyday. Thankfully now, when I do sin on occasion, I have an advocate who takes away my sins and keeps me perfect before God.
When Jesus comes for me, I will receive a new and perfect body and I will be free of the presence and power of sin forever.
But you don’t have to remain imperfect. The death that Jesus died for you, makes you perfect in the view of God.
You should have a “God belief,” because He does exist and He has come to earth as Jesus and proven to us that God exists, and He has made a way for all of us to be saved.
The Biblical Facts Concerning Slavery
The instances where God gives instructions regarding slavery, are prophylactic, not legal. There are only three cases in which slavery is regulated by God, not instituted as a matter of Law.
1. As prisoners of war, the Canaanites are placed into slavery as a method to control their evil.
2. As Israelites living in poverty, God instructs fellow Israelites to allow these individuals to work as indentured servants for seven years.
3. As Israelites living in debt, God instructs fellow Israelites to allow these individuals to work as indentured servants for seven years.
In the first example, the history if the Israelites coming from their slavery in Egypt, to the land of Canaan, reveals the brutality and evil of the Canaanite people. While Israel was traveling from Egypt to Canaan, the Amalekites, a part of the Canaanite nations, viciously attacked the nearly 2 million Israelites, from the rear. In a large group of persons traveling across the desert, the elderly, the women, babies and children, the sick, blind, and handicapped, will be at the rear of the group. It was these people that the Amalekites attacked among the Israelites, and brutally murdered them.
When the Israelites came into the land of Canaan, God reminded them what the Amalekites had done to their children, women, elderly and sick, and commanded the Israelites to bring the judgment of God to the Amalekites, equal to the crimes they had committed against the Israelites.
Deuteronomy 25:17-19 “Remember what Amalek did to you on the way as you were coming out of Egypt, how he met you on the way and attacked your rear ranks, all the stragglers at your rear, when you were tired and weary; and he did not fear God. Therefore it shall be, when the LORD your God has given you rest from your enemies all around, in the land which the LORD your God is giving you to possess as an inheritance, that you will blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven. You shall not forget.
God ordered the complete destruction of the Amalekite women, children, babies, elderly, and all of the people of their nation, as the penalty for what they had done to the Israelites. The punishment was equal to the crime.
The problem was that the Israelites did not completely destroy the Canaanites. They allowed many to live. This meant that the same threat that existed before they entered Canaan, was still present in the Canaanites who survived. In order to prevent the previous brutality of these evil people of Canaan against the Israelites, God permitted the Israelites to take them as captives of war and make them slaves.
In the balance of this essay I will described the second and third instances of slavery that the Israelites carried out, as also regulated by God. Indentured servitude for people in poverty and debt, with a term of service no longer than seven years.
The entire body of texts in the New Testament describes Jesus coming to earth to free us all from our slavery to sin, and to destroy satan who seeks to enslave people “to do his will” (2 Timothy 2:26).
God Never Approved Of Slavery, But People Have Hard Hearts
All of the laws that God gave Moses regarding the slavery that existed during that time, were due to people doing what they wanted, rather than what God desired. People are resistant to do the will of God, though it is always in our best interest. As a result of the obstinance of people, God must often bear with us and our stubborn attitudes and practices. This does not mean that God approves of slavery, or our persistence in doing what we want. Only that God is patient with us, kind even when we are doing wrong, and always seeking to bring us into a closer relationship with Him so that we can see and understand that what He says is better than what we choose for ourselves.
The Lord’s Judgement For Keeping Slaves
God told the Israelites through the prophet Jeremiah, that they were to set free the slaves they took. When they refused He ordered judgement against those who took slaves. God hates slavery. Any insinuation that the God of the Bible approves of slavery is impeached by the texts of the Bible where God brings judgment to the people and nations who take slaves.
Jeremiah 34:8-17: “This message came to Jeremiah from the LORD after King Zedekiah made a covenant with the people, proclaiming freedom for the slaves. 9 He had ordered all the people to free their Hebrew slaves—both men and women. No one was to keep a fellow Judean in bondage. 10 The officials and all the people had obeyed the king’s command, 11 but later they changed their minds. They took back the men and women they had freed, forcing them to be slaves again.
12 So the LORD gave them this message through Jeremiah: 13 “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: I made a covenant with your ancestors long ago when I rescued them from their slavery in Egypt. 14 I told them that every Hebrew slave must be freed after serving six years. But your ancestors paid no attention to me. 15 Recently you repented and did what was right, following my command. You freed your slaves and made a solemn covenant with me in the Temple that bears my name. 16 But now you have shrugged off your oath and defiled my name by taking back the men and women you had freed, forcing them to be slaves once again.
17 “Therefore, this is what the LORD says: Since you have not obeyed me by setting your countrymen free, I will set you free to be destroyed by war, disease, and famine. You will be an object of horror to all the nations of the earth.
Some Of The Things We See People Doing In The Bible That God Did Not Approve:
–Men took slaves (Leviticus 25:35-55, Ephesians 6:6-9).
–Men were unfair in their business practices (Leviticus 19:36, Romans 13:10).
–Men were mistreating their wives (Leviticus 18, Ephesians 5:25).
–Men were divorcing their wives (Deuteronomy 24:1,Matthew 19:3-8).
–Men were mistreating parents (Exodus 20:12, Mark 7:11-13).
While men are mistreating others, we see God seeking to correct these improper behaviors by concessions, commanding men to be fair and humane in the treatment of people. This is what we observe when God tells Moses to instruct the people. These are not instances where God is forcing his perfect will upon men; these are occasions where men are doing what they want and God is bearing with hard-hearted people and seeking fair treatment in the midst of their moral failures. Jesus described this in Matthew 19:3-8, as He corrected the teaching of the Pharisees, saying: “Moses permitted divorce only as a concession to your hard hearts, but it was not what God had originally intended.”
I find that the wisdom written in the Bible, is eternal, though the people that received this wisdom were not advanced nor living in a technological world.
The thing about wisdom as it is found in the Bible, is that it always works, regardless of time, location, people, or education.
We told God that we didn’t want Him to be God over the earth, we wanted to have dominion over earth and our lives. What we find today concerning natural disasters, are a result of man disobedience, and rebellion against God.
If man had sought the rulership of God over human life, He would have prevented natural disasters. He would have blessed our world with every good thing.
Our world is broken, filled with evil, and suffers at natural disasters because it has remained to the present day, in rebellion against God.
When Jesus returns and rules over the earth and the lives of those who want Him to rule, the Earth will be perfect, no one will ever die again, and there will be no more natural disasters that kill and destroy.
The Bible is sufficient for all wisdom
I see the terrible morality of people, and the righteous judgment of God against evil people who He warned ahead of time, sometimes hundreds of years, to repent and cease their sin. They refuse, God destroyed them in judgement.
Most people know the story of the Israelites departing Egypt and making their journey across the desert into the land God promised them. The narrative of the Hebrew people in Canaan really begins with Abraham who was born in Haran. As he made his way into the land that God was bringing them, the Amalekites attacked the Israelites. The Canaanites were already heavily occupying the entire area of land that would one day be the future home of Israel.
The Canaanites are the descendants of Canaan, the son of Ham, one of Noah’s three sons. Among the Canaanites are the most infamous—the Amorites, who lived in the hill country of Israel. The rest of the Canaanites include: the Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites, Amalekites, Hittites, Moabites, Edomites, Philistines, and Girgashites. The people of the Canaanite nations were some of the most brutal and vicious human beings who have ever lived on the planet.
Archeology Confirms The Total Depravity Of The Canaanites
Professor H. H. Rowley asserts that the commands by the God of the Bible to destroy the Canaanites, are contrary to the texts of the New Testament.[A] Critics of God often claim that the God of the Old Testament is a monster who indiscriminately murders women, children, babies, and animals, who have no culpability.
Today due to modern archeological discoveries we understand that the Canaanites were some of the most depraved and vicious people ever to live on earth. Because of archeology, the statements made in the Old Testament regarding the Canaanites, are confirmed by what these reprobate people left behind.
In these facts of evidence we learn that the Canaanites were fully culpable and deserved judgment for their bloodthirsty and immoral lives perpetrated all over the land of Canaan. The idea that God was unjust in their destruction, or that Yahweh committed genocide upon innocent people is preposterous, in light of the archeological evidence.
Canaanite kings forcibly married their sisters. Young boys were kept as sex slaves and temple prostitutes at the temples of Canaanite gods. The Canaanite god, Anath was a combination of sister and spouse as a goddess who was a mirror image of the deviant practices of Canaanite kings.
The Canaanite goddess, Qudshu, “the Holiness,” is seen as a perverted moral goddess riding nude on the back of a lion, with a lily in one hand and a serpent in the other, seeking sex with her worshippers. Male prostitutes were dedicated to the sex cult of the Qudshu, offering themselves to this goddess in her honor.
The vast number of Canaanite gods in Ugaritic epic literature displays the depth of depravity that characterized the Canaanite people and their demonic religion. Rooted in a debasement of normal human morality, Canaanites considered nothing off limits in the expression of their evil and licentiousness. Canaanites practiced barbaric rituals of murder while in mass orgies, as a part of their religious ceremonies.
Psalms 106:37-38 describes the gods of the Canaanites as “demons” whom they sacrifice their sons and daughters on the altar of Molech. “They even sacrificed their sons and daughters to the demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters. By sacrificing them to the idols of Canaan, they polluted the land with murder.”
A part of these horrendous practices are illustrated in Anath who appears in a fragment of the Baal Epic depicting a bloody orgy of destruction. In this display, Anath is seen butchering young and old, “in the most horrible and wholesale fashion, wading delightedly in human gore up to her knees—yea up to her throat, all the while exulting sadistically.”
Attacking The Israelites From Behind
While the people of Israel were traveling across the desert on their way to the land that God had promised, the Amalekites ruthlessly attacked from the rear where the elderly, sick and handicapped, women, children, and animals came along at a much slower pace.
The Amalekites intentionally came up from behind so that they could kill as many of the helpless people of Israel as possible. After this great slaughter of the Israelites by the Amalekites, the God of Israel reminded them that He would do to the Amalekites, what they did to the people of Israel.
When God ordered judgement against the Amalekites, He said that their punishment would be equal to what they had done to the Israelites; the elderly, sick, handicapped, women, babies, children, and animals.
God was not committing genocide, He was bringing judgment for a nation and people who had mercilessly slaughtered the people of Israel who were simply traveling along in a caravan to the land God promised.
Because God is the Creator of all that exists, and has given us the Earth, life, and everything we need to live a good life, He deserves our love, worship, and preeminence.
When God is first in our life, then everything else makes sense and works as it should, When God is forgotten people lose sight of their purpose and who they were created to be. Like God, perfect, loving, kind, and righteous and just in all their ways.
The bottom line is that when we do what God said to do, our lives our blessed. When we live according to our own wisdom and reject what God said, the world becomes as it is now.
The fact that the universe was created by God by His command, is a pretty clear indicator that He knows what He is doing, and we don not. I have not found anything that God has said to do that will make for a great life, that has not worked.
No I am not surprise, but I also know from seeing this that it is not God’s fault that I commit sin and chose evil. Just as God made me a free moral agent, my sons also had the choice to choose.
God was not surprised, He prepared for our rebellion by planning in advance to come to earth as Jesus and offer us redemption.
But…we are made perfect by our desire to be restored to God by trusting in what Jesus did for us at the cross.
That is why God sent Jesus to perfectly keep the law for us. When we trust in Jesus He imputes the righteousness of Jesus to our account and we also become perfect.
The Maker made Adam perfect. He became imperfect by his choice to embrace evil over good. We are Adam’s descendants and we inherit his flaw of sin.
Jesus came to remove this flaw and make us perfect again by our trust in His death and resurrection.
I noted Leviticus 25_44-46 above in an extensive answer…
Again, see my answer above:
The instances where God gives instructions regarding slavery, are prophylactic, not legal. There are only three cases in which slavery is regulated by God, not instituted as a matter of Law.
1. As prisoners of war, the Canaanites are placed into slavery as a method to control their evil.
2. As Israelites living in poverty, God instructs fellow Israelites to allow these individuals to work as indentured servants for seven years.
3. As Israelites living in debt, God instructs fellow Israelites to allow these individuals to work as indentured servants for seven years.
He told Adam directly by His word not to sin.
He told us indirectly by His word in the Bible not to sin, and how to live
When I was an atheist, prior to 1975, I lived in a constant state of sin, because I didn’t care.
Since that time, my sin-life is greatly diminished as I have now been led by the Spirit of God who lives in me.
1 John 1 describes the purpose of John writing about Jesus, “so that we might not sin, but when you do… we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus, the righteous.”
John writes that when we sin now, we confess our wrong, and God continually cleanses us of all unrighteousness. We stay in a state of sinlessness before God.
Jesus is waiting for people like you. You could be the last one that He has waited in heaven for, witholding judgment of this world, because He loves you and doesn’t want anyone to be lost.
2 Peter 3:3-10 (NLT) 3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.”
5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens long ago by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed.
8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment.
I grieve for you now, but once in heaven, none of us will ever think of the lost again. If anyone is lost because they reject Christ, it will be their own fault. I want you to be saved, Bob, but the responsibility is yours not mine.
“Those who have fled to Jesus for the salvation He offers, will be spared all judgment, designated as perfect and righteous, and allowed to live in the new and perfect world that He will create.
I hope you will join us, Bob”
No need. Rom. 5:18-19 says we don’t need to do anything to get salvation.
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“A difficult principle for the world to understand is the wrath of God. How can a God of love be reconciled with a God of wrath? The two seem to be incompatible.”
Yes, good point. God is omnipotent, so whatever he can accomplish with wrath, he can accomplish without it.
“We should understand that our Great God of Love is also a Great God of Justice.”
Justice and mercy seem to be at odds. Justice is getting what you deserve, and mercy is getting less than you deserve.
I presume that your dogma is that we both don’t deserve heaven. I’ll get the full measure of justice (which I deserve), but you’ll get mercy—that is, less than a full measure of justice (which you *don’t* deserve).
“The Lord could not possibly be Righteous if He did not punish sin.”
Where did that sin come from? We come out of the box as a sinful person with no chance of ever deserving heaven. But whose fault is that? God could make us sin-free and give us the moral wisdom to always make the right moral choice.
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Ah, there’s the intelligence from you that I am used to seeing…
God’s wrath is directed at sin and evil, not specifically at people.
The only way that a truly righteous God can exist, is if He hates sin and what it does to people. Unfortunately the only way that God could have a family that truly wants to live in a world of righteousness, apart from sin, is to give us all the choice of good or evil.
We have already seen what some people do with the choice of evil, the world is filled with their choices today.
Almost everything in the world that ruins human life today, was caused by people and their choices for evil.
God had to allow people to make their own choice, with a warning that choices have consequences (like elections), and that there is a penalty of death for those who choose evil and sin.
God’s wrath is directed at what sin and evil do to us, people He loves and wants to live in a world of peace, joy, love, and enjoyment. Sin destroys this world for all of us. So, yes, God hates sin and His wrath in destroying it, is an attribute of His nature.
Since all of us have sinned and the penalty is death, we all deserve death for our sins.
God in His justice needed to do what He said, punish sin and inflict the penalty of death. Instead of carrying out this sentence upon us, He sent His Son to pay the penalty for sin and death, for us.
Jesus lived a sinless life and He offer His perfect life as payment for our sins. At the cross Jesus took all of the sins of every person, for all time, upon Himself. He died for these sins, and paid their penalty.
Since all sins are already paid for, all people can have eternal life. The problem is that not all people want to be saved.
Now God can freely offer forgiveness and eternal life to anyone who wants it. Though we don’t deserve what Jesus did for us, God make eternal life available to you and I, and everyone who has lived on earth.
On the Cross, Jesus bore the full force of God’s wrath for all sins. Now there is no longer any wrath or penalty of eternal death, for all those who choose to trust in Jesus for their salvation.
The justice of God in promising to punish sin, has been satisfied by Jesus’ death for all sins.
You are right, in part, in that as we are the descendants of Adam, we all inherit the nature to sin. This is why Jesus came, so that we might be treated fairly by God, and not suffer for what Adam caused. When we are sorry for our sins and ask Jesus to take them away by His death on the cross, God removes our record of wrong and makes us perfect beings, ready for heaven.
We can also be honest and admit that each of us know that certain things are wrong, but we choose to do them anyway. We are each guilty of sin ourselves, even without the error of Adam.
God was being completely fair in that He offered us a way out of sin and death by punishing Jesus instead of us. It was because God is completely Good and Fair, that He did this for us, even though none of us deserved such kindness.
I hope you will join us, Bob
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#BatteredWifeSyndrome
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What does this have to do with this essay?
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Because that’s what battered women say. With bruised faces and black eyes, they’ll say that they’re grateful he took them back, that it was all their fault, that they’re going to try to be better, and so on.
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I see. So you didn’t actually read the essay.
There is nothing in the text that implies that people are abused and bruised by God, but they keep going back to Him.
The text describes the plague that sin and evil have inflicted on human life, and how Jesus, as God, came to earth to permanently destroy evil and give us all the opportunity to live in a perfect world.
Please, next time, be genuine and read the essay before you comment on it.
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“So you didn’t actually read the essay.”
I read the title, “How The Wrath Of God Proves His Love And Righteousness,” and that was enough for a comment.
“There is nothing in the text that implies that people are abused and bruised by God, but they keep going back to Him.”
Yes, and this mirrors women in abusive relationships.
“The text describes the plague that sin and evil have inflicted on human life, and how Jesus, as God, came to earth to permanently destroy evil and give us all the opportunity to live in a perfect world.”
God’s Perfect Plan would make more sense if it was perfect from the beginning. That two clueless kids could upset God’s apple cart doesn’t say much about his plan.
“Please, next time, be genuine and read the essay before you comment on it.”
It’s a 4000-word essay. Sorry, but I can’t commit to that.
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One of the things I like about you, Bob, is that you are always honest. Thank you!
Would you please tell me how Bob would have created humans and given them choice, but not allowed them to choose evil:
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